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rimchamp77
Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:13 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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I have a LOT of people stumped with this question: name me one drug that was banned following studies showing that it was very harmful or very risky that is still widely used and has a lucrative black market supplying users?
People know me as an older fitness fanatic who wrote the country's only viable drug education curriculum - that will never be studied in schools. President Bush and myself are far more likely to use this drug than Cheney and Ted Kennedy. If I tested positive for use I would suffer no consequences. If I was found with this drug on school property, I would be immediately arrested and charged with a crime. Just post here if you have any guesses. If you know of any other drugs that meet this criteria post them here. I will come back and let you know if you are correct.

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Bryan
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:19 am Reply with quote
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I would say Alcohol
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weirdharold
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:46 am Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Posts: 237 Location: Mississippi

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Alcohol is dangerous?

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Harold W. Ard
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rimchamp77
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:21 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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Bryan wrote:
I would say Alcohol


We do have stats showing definite harm for chronic users. Alcohol is linked to many health problems due to chronic use and abuse. We did actually ban alcohol. But when we banned alcohol we didn't have these statistical studies to show the public how potentially dangerous alcohol was. And right now alcohol is fully available to any fool over age 21. BTW, the answer was steroids - sort of. It was banned by sports federations. They had loads of data about people abusing anabolic steroids - with dastardly consequences. Steroid usage is not addictive - but the drive to succeed at any cost is. All the "mind altering affects" attributed to chronic steroid use are mostly indistinguishable with the monomania that often goes with competition at sports' highest levels.
The bottom line is that the main source of drug use and abuse problems revolve around "performance enhancing" usage. Whether it is for social bonding with drugs to enhance career, usage to enable workaholic lifestyles, or just being able to vent frustrations without accountability while telling the world "it didn't count because I was drug-impaired", the biggest lure of abuse of drugs has to do with gaining an edge over others.

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fotomatt
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:02 am Reply with quote
Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 35

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rimchamp77 wrote:
Steroid usage is not addictive - but the drive to succeed at any cost is.


An internal, psychological drive is not the sort of thing that can be, or become, addictive, though it could be argued that it is a sort of addiction. Are you perhaps trying to say that steroids are not physically addictive but can be psychologically addictive?

rimchamp77 wrote:
All the "mind altering affects" [sic] attributed to chronic steroid use are mostly indistinguishable with the monomania that often goes with competition at sports' highest levels.


And yet, I think it's safe to say that most steroids are consumed by folks who are not at "sports' highest levels." How do you account for this? And what's your basis for the claim of "monomania?"


rimchamp77 wrote:
The bottom line is that the main source of drug use and abuse problems revolve around "performance enhancing" usage.


Really? So all of those heroin addicts are just trying to gain an edge over their co-workers?

rimchamp77 wrote:
...the biggest lure of abuse of drugs has to do with gaining an edge over others.


I don't think "abuse" is alluring to (almost) anyone. And I really don't think that the primary allure of drug use is one's desire to gain an edge over others. I think the primary allure of drugs is the user's desire to positively alter her consciousness (e.g., to feel euphoric, to feel less pain, to have visions, etc.)

As for steroids in particular, while there certainly are competitive athletes who use non-prescription steroids to excel in their sport, I would speculate that most users of non-prescription steroids do so out of feelings of poor self-esteem.
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rimchamp77
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:00 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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fotomatt wrote:
rimchamp77 wrote:
Steroid usage is not addictive - but the drive to succeed at any cost is.


An internal, psychological drive is not the sort of thing that can be, or become, addictive, though it could be argued that it is a sort of addiction. Are you perhaps trying to say that steroids are not physically addictive but can be psychologically addictive?

I would state that drug abuse is connected with all sorts of mania related to competition. You bond with colleagues and clients - using drugs. You use drugs as a safety valve for stressful jobs. Those jobs are stressful because most people regard them as win-lose. When only the top producers get the big rewards in any field, there is high incidences of drug addiction and abuse. The higher the income the more drug dependency. Addiction is just the body's reaction to constant use - as is allergy.

rimchamp77 wrote:
All the "mind altering affects" [sic] attributed to chronic steroid use are mostly indistinguishable with the monomania that often goes with competition at sports' highest levels.


And yet, I think it's safe to say that most steroids are consumed by folks who are not at "sports' highest levels." How do you account for this? And what's your basis for the claim of "monomania?"

Mostly personal experience with other amateur athletes. I had to make the decision: was I ready for the next level? I clearly did not want to focus my entire being on success and become a variation of the workaholic drug laden abusive parent that I had when growing up.


rimchamp77 wrote:
The bottom line is that the main source of drug use and abuse problems revolve around "performance enhancing" usage.


Really? So all of those heroin addicts are just trying to gain an edge over their co-workers?

Heroin addicts initially try the drug to "fit in". Bonding with drugs is as old as the hills. Pretending that some forms of drug usage are OK and acceptable and others are not is ludicrous and deceptive. Before heroin was banned its primary use was for relief of severe pain. Most people had no problems rejoining once the injury that caused that pain was healed. Some people found that the pain was more than just physical and kept on self-medicating. Others found that the injury did not heal.

rimchamp77 wrote:
...the biggest lure of abuse of drugs has to do with gaining an edge over others.


I don't think "abuse" is alluring to (almost) anyone. And I really don't think that the primary allure of drug use is one's desire to gain an edge over others. I think the primary allure of drugs is the user's desire to positively alter her consciousness (e.g., to feel euphoric, to feel less pain, to have visions, etc.)

And you don't believe that feeling euphoric - rather than depressed is NOT an improvement? It's only when you become obsessed with maintaining this euphoria that it becomes a problem.

As for steroids in particular, while there certainly are competitive athletes who use non-prescription steroids to excel in their sport, I would speculate that most users of non-prescription steroids do so out of feelings of poor self-esteem.


So you don't believe that the differential in pay for a second tier athlete [who performs at a 98 or above % of an elite athlete] who earns less than 5% of an elite athlete has nothing to do with steroid abuse? On a business level you don't believe that "smoozing with booze" with the boss and joining his/her inner circle and getting preferential access with your ideas has no appeal to someone with a family to support? When you bond with drugs to achieve social status and access to more resources for yourself and your family the temptation is insane. Yes, it has a false allure but perception usually trumps reality.

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fotomatt
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:04 am Reply with quote
Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 35

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rimchamp77 wrote:
I would state that drug abuse is connected with all sorts of mania related to competition.


What are you talking about? Where is all this drug abuse? Are you including alcohol and tobacco in your general definition of drugs? What mania? You're not making a whole lot of sense.

rimchamp77 wrote:
You bond with colleagues and clients - using drugs.


Do you mean beer? Or maybe a mixed drink? I mean, you're not seriously suggesting that it's commonplace for "colleagues and clients" to just sit down and snort a few lines of coke, are you? I'm not saying such things never happen, but you make it sound as though it's the norm.

So, Mr. Jones, before we finalize the last few details of this multi-billion dollar long-term contract, what do you say we shoot some of this pure Afghan heroin I just got hold of?

rimchamp77 wrote:
You use drugs as a safety valve for stressful jobs.


Perhaps you do. Some other folks do, as well. But, then, others don't. Some folks workout at the gym, or make music and art. Some just internalize the stress and die early. There's no easy generalization.

And even among those who do use, most use responsibly.

rimchamp77 wrote:
Those jobs are stressful because most people regard them as win-lose.

Hmmm... lots of stressful jobs are NOT win-lose. They're just stressful because there's so much to do. Or any number of other factors.

rimchamp77 wrote:
When only the top producers get the big rewards in any field, there is high incidences of drug addiction and abuse.

In lots of fields, there are only "big rewards" for a few. Does this mean that there are "high incidences of drug addiction and abuse" in all of those fields? What fields are you thinking of? Can you provide ANY evidence for what you're saying?

rimchamp77 wrote:
The higher the income the more drug dependency.

Now I really want you to back that up with some evidence. What... all the millionaires are drug addicts?

rimchamp77 wrote:
Addiction is just the body's reaction to constant use - as is allergy.


Where do you get this stuff from? Really, I think you're just making this up. It certainly has no scientific basis.

rimchamp77 wrote:
Mostly [my] personal experience with other amateur athletes. I had to make the decision: was I ready for the next level? I clearly did not want to focus my entire being on success and become a variation of the workaholic drug laden abusive parent that I had when growing up.

Yeah, I know, dude... you could've been a pro, but you just decided against it... you did it for the children.

Dysfunctional family. Workaholic parent. Welcome to the club. I thought we were talking about drugs, but instead you've resorted to laying out your lousy childhood. That's real touching and all, but it's not much of a rational basis for most of the claims you're making about drugs.

rimchamp77 wrote:
Heroin addicts initially try the drug to "fit in".

Maybe... maybe not. But it's sure as hell not with their co-workers at an office Christmas party.

rimchamp77 wrote:
Pretending that some forms of drug usage are OK and acceptable and others are not is ludicrous and deceptive.

No, actually it's completely normal and reasonable. It's simply social norms and mores. All groups/cultures/societies proscribe, tolerate, or condone various actions and behaviors. That doesn't mean that those social norms are necessarily "right" or wrong, or that we shouldn't try to change them, but differentiating between some drugs and others is not inherently unreasonable. There can easily be a rational basis for making such distinctions.

And if you think about it, you don't even believe what you said.
For example:
(a) Smoking a couple joints over the course of an evening.
(b) Drinking thirty margaritas over the course of an evening.
(c) Taking MDMA and dancing over the course of an evening.


rimchamp77 wrote:
Before heroin was banned its primary use was for relief of severe pain. Most people had no problems rejoining once the injury that caused that pain was healed.


Right... most people who use opiates do not become addicts. But some do.

rimchamp77 wrote:
Some people found that the pain was more than just physical and kept on self-medicating. Others found that the injury did not heal.


Maybe that was your experience. But let's not forget good ol' physiological addiction. People may be prescribed opiates for very real and legitimate reasons and find that when they've healed -- when the pain is gone -- that they have acquired a physical addiction through no fault of their own. Don't just chalk it up to some undisclosed psychic pain.

rimchamp77 wrote:
And you don't believe that feeling euphoric - rather than depressed is NOT an improvement?

Your double-negative thing is a bit confusing, but I think that I was very clear previously that "euphoria" would be seen by almost anyone as a positive alteration of consciousness. I certainly like it.

rimchamp77 wrote:
So you don't believe that the differential in pay for a second tier athlete [who performs at a 98 or above % of an elite athlete] who earns less than 5% of an elite athlete has nothing to do with steroid abuse?


You're really obsessed with this whole "athletes who didn't quite make it" thing, aren't you?

And all of the double-negatives are driving me crazy!

But worst of all is that you keep swerving back and forth, talking about steroids, then talking about drug abuse in general. At various points you seem to be confusing and conflating the two. Can we hold to our topics a little more? Please?

rimchamp77 wrote:
On a business level you don't believe that "smoozing with booze" with the boss and joining his/her inner circle and getting preferential access with your ideas has no appeal to someone with a family to support?

Oh, yeah... a few drinks with the boss and the family is just out the window! Some of us actually have self-control. In fact, the overwhelming majority of folks have such self-control.

Of course, my experience has typically been that the boss stays away and it's just the co-workers who drink together. YMMV.

rimchamp77 wrote:
When you bond with drugs to achieve social status and access to more resources for yourself and your family the temptation is insane.

So... ummm... are you talking about how difficult it is for a sober alcoholic to refrain from drinking at the company party? Does this apply to non-alcoholics? Otherwise, what IS your point?

rimchamp77 wrote:
Yes, it has a false allure but perception usually trumps reality.

Slayde, you are a poet, I said
But what are you truly speaking of?
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Gordmanic
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:01 pm Reply with quote
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I can see here the discussion is getting hot. Why don't you take a break and visit a drug and alcohol rehab center, everything will be much more clear then.
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weirdharold
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Posts: 237 Location: Mississippi

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I just wonder about that success ratio? When will they start cutting into that 30 million addict/alcoholics we have here in USA? Maybe we should tell the DEA about this program

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rimchamp77
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:14 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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The only thing I can surmise is that photomatt is really very very dense. The whole idea is that we have a dysfunctional society when it comes to work and abuse. Using drugs to cope with that abuse is our modus operandi. Using drugs to bond is the modus operandi of all societies so maybe bringing in that unrelated problem was confusing. But no, everyone copes differently. And not everyone who bonds with drugs becomes addicted. It all revolves around where we get our rewards. If it is internal based on positive relationships and righteous attitudes drug addiction and abuse is highly unlikely. If it is based on social status and peer approval then it is likely. When rewards are based on competition then your success will always be dependent on others. When it is dependent on others then you compromise principles to achieve approval or an edge in competition.
Competition is one way to measure oneself. But success should never be so reliant on what others do or how they react to you. That has nothing to do with drug use or how drugs affect you - but it does affect how you react to adversity and how susceptible you are to addictive behaviors - like sexual predation, workaholism, and social climbing. Those dysfunctions are the root of all drug -related problems. "Dangerous drugs" have little impact.

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rita
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:24 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 Posts: 162 Location: Arizona

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rimchamp77 wrote:
The bottom line is that the main source of drug use and abuse problems revolve around "performance enhancing" usage. Whether it is for social bonding with drugs to enhance career, usage to enable workaholic lifestyles, or just being able to vent frustrations without accountability while telling the world "it didn't count because I was drug-impaired", the biggest lure of abuse of drugs has to do with gaining an edge over others.


Performance enhancing usage? Who are you kidding? The most popular drugs are, in order, alcohol, tobacco and marijuana -- exactly what performance do any of these enhance?

As for drug-related lack of accountability, it seems to me that it's the drug warriors promoting THAT idea -- pretending that the use of certain drugs causes the user to commit crimes against society is the only way they can justify depriving so many of their freedom.

The bottom line is that the main source of drug use and abuse problems is drug warriors who label any illegal drug use "abuse." The bottom line is that MOST people use illegal drugs for the same reasons they use legal ones -- because they like the way the drug makes them feel -- relaxed, energetic, numb; different people like different drugs at different times; for most people, drug use presents a problem only when the drug of choice is illegal.
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rimchamp77
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:31 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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I'm sorry but in social situations where there is a lot of stress and self-consciousness feeling numb can make you feel that you have an "edge". If "fitting in" isn't about performance enhancement it might be about social status. In mediaspeak social status and peer approval is everything. This country promotes emotional dependency in order to sell everything - including legal drug usage, over reliancy and dependency. And yes, often this leads to addiction - which is absolutely NOT the same thing as dependency [although it is casually referred to as "emotional dependency"].
When one's self image revolves around income, number of possessions and sex appeal that is definitely unhealthy. Of course in mediaspeak, performance enhancement is strictly limited to the sports world where athletic excellence - based on being acclaimed by the media - is the only thing. Who cares if you are in the best shape of your life? Are you Olympic material? Have you won any championships? Who have you beaten that anyone has ever heard about? Sports is either about sacrificing tomorrow for today's glory or living vicariously through others who have. It's not about feeling good and actually having more of your full physical capacity for longer periods of time.
I find that I get trashed so often in this forum precisely because people apply mediaspeak definitions [aberrations] to define what I say. Accountability is something for only the rank and file; the government protects the privileged from oversight. Micromanage their lives to ensure accountability. When you earn enough money by satisfying the elite, then you can run part of your life - if you are not too obvious about your "indiscretions". And the code of silence aids with this image.

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mola
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:43 am Reply with quote
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My choice is alcohol but the interests behind Alcohol and Cigarettes are to high to neglect.
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mola
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:22 am Reply with quote
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I think there are a few drugs that can sharpen your senses but with terrible side effects.
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rimchamp77
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Philomath, OR

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mola wrote:
I think there are a few drugs that can sharpen your senses but with terrible side effects.


There is no such thing as a side effect. That is what the drug does. If you have low tolerance, use the drug continually or deliberately abuse that drug you will most certainly experience nearly all the listed "side effects". I've seen people whose running careers were ruined by using steroids. The first time they used it they recovered well from injury. The second time the recovery didn't last as long and the third time their body seemingly lost most of its ability to repair damage on its own through atrophy.
Any time you use a drug to enhance faculties those abilities tend to atrophy due to over reliance. Occasional drug use for performance enhancement or recreation are no problems. It's the over reliance or "emotional addiction" that is the killer. But that's not Drugs 101; that's Human Psychology 101. Expecting drug use to work differently than other social influences does not add up. But that's what you have to do in order to swallow the baloney that drug warriors insist is true. Somehow the use of certain drugs "alters" the thinking processes. There is no such thing as a "mind altering" drug that changes model citizens into raving loons. That premise just doesn't add up. It shouldn't take a genius to figger that out. You just have to take notes of what you observe in the real world. Harold does just that. He just can't negotiate the arcane language of obfuscation that "experts" with credentials use to confuse people. If it don't add up, no amount of sophistry should matter.

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